You sound like you know your way around MMA rules, so I have to ask: Is deep freezing your opponent and then kicking his frozen body until it shatters into a thousand tiny pieces legal? Asking for a friend (Sub Zero).
I remember watching it when I was younger and thinking it was so wild, MMA. But I never watched it past a big event. Now that I practice Ju jitsu, I seem to just watch grappling matches. Like last night for instance. I was holding my breath and realized I was tensing my whole body the whole time. I am actually sore this morning from it. It was so interesting to see how different competitors compete. The energy they go into it with, the different coaching styles, the egos and judgement and the more humble and modest side talk, and at times the misogyny 🙄 . I know next to nothing about this sport that isn’t surface level when it comes to the names of moves or who the famous grapplers are.
What I do know is, I know nothing, I want to learn more, I want to compete, I want to be strong/composed/well versed/ and humble enough to stay safe but also kick ass and I think I walked into the very best gym in the city to help me do just that. 🤪
It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there win or lose and that in itself is something all competitors should be proud of themselves for.
I'm glad you got to see a little of this - all of it, including the negative stuff. It's all out there in the community of jiu jitsu.
BJJ - the art- is incredible, and there are indeed many fantastic people involved that are well worth getting to know! However, just because someone does BJJ, doesn't make them a good person by any measure whatever. That one really hurt for Young Andrew to learn.
I think I am also coming to understand this pretty quickly, Andrew. But with all things social, being good is subjective and what’s good to one could quite possibly be a lack of understanding/tone deficit towards the environment that others share. Privilege in its many forms can be blinding until experience humbles us all.
What always blows my mind as a woman, is the quiet acceptance/discomfort I read on other women’s faces and even people of different culture backgrounds when even their friends say something ridiculous.
It’s like we don’t want to rock the boat because we don’t want to be ousted from a sport we also have come to love or want to be good at, but luckily there are some mature, and more insightful people sprinkled amongst the crown and I did see other people calmly calling out the nonsense.
I will say this, my observation at every event I’ve been to since I started, and on the mat is that the Revolution Coaches level of leadership by example and sportsmanship is really impressive and you should be proud of the culture you’ve created with them and what they have created with their students. I know not everyone on the mat is going to be someone who is safe, BUT I continue to feel safe enough to speak up and be supported if an issue was to arrive and like my teammates at Revolution have my back and I’ve got theirs and that type of community is truly beautiful and priceless and I think that’s why everyone thrives there. ☺️
I know I have a lot to learn, but I am confident in my mentors and classmates to guide me.
Great pix, Andrew....especially the one with you and the stately statuary! Like right out of Marble Comics, you just can't help being the centaur of attention, can you?😉👍
Very enjoyable read for a history enthusiast / out of shape BJJ guy like myself! You ever check out any of the modern (now very old) pankration, the Pancrase fights with guys like Shamrock vs Rutten?
I used to love watching MMA. It's definitely changed, but also I got a lot out of being familiar with every fighter. I enjoyed knowing their tendencies and what they were trying to do. Once I got out of the habit of watching and the schedule got crammed full of fights, it just wasn't the same watching anonymous randoms.
That's a great point, Devon. I also enjoyed it when the universe of fighters was small. It was easy to see where everyone was coming from. Nowadays? Bleh.
I was actually planning to ask if you would write about martial arts history! That’s a cool story about the “back take”. I was thinking the other day about how, when I first started BJJ, I would give up my back all the time, now I don’t make that mistake very often. It’s cool that BJJ is such a welcoming community, I would have loved to have seen how it was 25 years ago but I’m also grateful to be coming up in that environment now, when such a big effort is made to welcome people who might have been a little intimidated by the way it used to be.
On the deep historical side, I’ve been meaning to ask, do you think the early judo/jiu jitsu that developed in Feudal Japan was ultimately derived from the Greeks by cultural diffusion or do you think it developed in situ? A lot of people think the spread of Buddhism from Central Asia could have brought Pankraton technique to Japan by way of monks who practiced it, wondering if you had a theory on that. Great article as usual!
Fantastic question about Japanese ju jitsu (or jujutsu, if you prefer). I certainly don't have a definitive answer, but the more I've learned about the history of the Silk Road (and travel from Asia to Europe and vice versa long prior to its inception), the more I believe we're at least a little more connected than we previously believed.
It's very plausible that Alexander's march eastward led to 2nd or 3rd order impacts on Japan. For instance, Prateek points out here that silk made its way west (from China) to Greece, courtesy of Alexander's conquests and ambitious enemies of the Han:
I think it would be feasible to reconstruct a scenario where Buddhist monks passing through Greek Bactria could have picked up some Pankration and passed it on to East Asia along with their religion. That said, it’s sort of a hyper diffusion argument and I’m always a little skeptical of those, it’s certainly plausible that the same kind of grappling techniques could have been developed independently in Japan or China perhaps. But it’s so fun to think of all the ways this may have been possible! It’s interesting to think that, in that scenario, grappling techniques could have migrated from the Mediterranean to Japan then ultimately back migrated all the way to Brazil!
Great food for thought here. I wish it wasn't so speculative, but you know, it might not always be this way. History has a funny way of surprising us, and archaeological discoveries could help us fill in some of these gaps in the future.
I know just what you mean about relying too much on diffusion. Most of the time, it makes sense, but you can get into a lot of trouble if you're reaching to connect dots (EG, independent conclusions like the pyramid shape) that aren't really connected.
We do know a bit more about the (still murky) origins of BJJ, and it's not all about the Gracie family, either.
I think if success is only defined by the victory/positive outcome, we will continue to see someone attempting victory at all costs, and it is not only valid with sports but almost everything else we do. In most cases, a person's success is defined mainly by the amount of money, and some people do wrong/unethical things to succeed at all costs and end up in jail. We have two recent examples: Theranos and FTX.
I believe focus on winning should not merely be about the outcome but also about the journey and how goals are pursued. However, it is a complex concept to quantify over the amount of money that was made during an endeavor. I think that’s the reason why we judge success by a victory or how much money was made.
Well done. Our society (as it exists in this arbitrary moment) determines the rules by which the game is played, and companies jump through those hoops willingly.
Another interesting fallout here is the Prisoner's Dilemma.
Good sketch. I also deal with this crap every single day, and I hate it. But incentives are necessary... and one of the toughest things to think about in business.
Yes, I spotted this. It seems that this has been going round forever. I remember reading about an early judo challenge that happened in the White House, of all places! But before that Japanese 'Jujutsu' people were doing the rounds in the English Music Halls, taking on all-comers, usually amateur wrestlers. I haven't watched an MMA match in ages, I have no idea what the current trends are, all I recall is that as one tactic gets stymied, another pops up and so the whole circus goes round. I don't think it ever addresses the question it seems set up to answer, you just get athletes who get better at playing the game.
But, I find myself wondering; re. anything that ends up being presented to an audience... what's it actually there for?
Tim, I think you hit the nail on the head RE the audience. It's no longer about the competitors, but instead about the spectators... and then the money they bring in to the promoter of the event.
I owned a grappling tournament that ran some 150+ events over about 15 years. We learned a lot, but we always catered to the competitors. Perhaps unsurprisingly, we went out of business over the pandemic, but the reputation has lasted as one of the best jiu jitsu or grappling tournaments anywhere.
Awe! I wish I could have seen this. I would think this would bring in more people to watch, but maybe that’s just my wishful thinking of wanting the masses to have more class than they possibly do when group think takes over. Sigh. Bring it back!
If we could have made money, we might still be doing it, but subsidizing a great tournament with our time (and, eventually, with our money) wasn't sustainable.
Karelin was an insane fighter. I enjoy MMA now and don't mind that fighters have a striking and a grappling martial art in their arsenal. I enjoy the BJJ vs. Sambo discussions, mostly because of the colorful Dagestani fighters LOL. Fun fact: Lucha Libre in Mexico is referred to as "the art of pankration."
I should maybe clarify: I appreciate striking and grappling arts, even putting them together. However, it's not longer an experiment of style-vs-style as much as individual with a particular skilllset vs another individual with a virtually identical (from where I sit) skill set.
I also really, really hate macho MMA "bro culture" that can often take over as the lowest common denominator.
Now Kung Fu doesn't have to be tested any more.
You sound like you know your way around MMA rules, so I have to ask: Is deep freezing your opponent and then kicking his frozen body until it shatters into a thousand tiny pieces legal? Asking for a friend (Sub Zero).
I'm not super up to date on today's rules, but I wanna say fatalities are right out.
Fine. Brutalities it is then.
Any word on babalities?
I'll allow it.
lol. Awesome.
Kevin, I wanna give you a very brief homework assignment: come up with an appropriate song for Arrhichion!
First one that comes to mind:
https://youtu.be/C4rKGdHTmUg?feature=shared
Jokes aside, let me think about it right quick.
Today I learned that Sammy Hagar is a "surf punk."
Would also go with “Move Any Mountain” by The Shamen.
I guess the mountain did move after all.
I remember watching it when I was younger and thinking it was so wild, MMA. But I never watched it past a big event. Now that I practice Ju jitsu, I seem to just watch grappling matches. Like last night for instance. I was holding my breath and realized I was tensing my whole body the whole time. I am actually sore this morning from it. It was so interesting to see how different competitors compete. The energy they go into it with, the different coaching styles, the egos and judgement and the more humble and modest side talk, and at times the misogyny 🙄 . I know next to nothing about this sport that isn’t surface level when it comes to the names of moves or who the famous grapplers are.
What I do know is, I know nothing, I want to learn more, I want to compete, I want to be strong/composed/well versed/ and humble enough to stay safe but also kick ass and I think I walked into the very best gym in the city to help me do just that. 🤪
It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there win or lose and that in itself is something all competitors should be proud of themselves for.
I'm glad you got to see a little of this - all of it, including the negative stuff. It's all out there in the community of jiu jitsu.
BJJ - the art- is incredible, and there are indeed many fantastic people involved that are well worth getting to know! However, just because someone does BJJ, doesn't make them a good person by any measure whatever. That one really hurt for Young Andrew to learn.
I think I am also coming to understand this pretty quickly, Andrew. But with all things social, being good is subjective and what’s good to one could quite possibly be a lack of understanding/tone deficit towards the environment that others share. Privilege in its many forms can be blinding until experience humbles us all.
What always blows my mind as a woman, is the quiet acceptance/discomfort I read on other women’s faces and even people of different culture backgrounds when even their friends say something ridiculous.
It’s like we don’t want to rock the boat because we don’t want to be ousted from a sport we also have come to love or want to be good at, but luckily there are some mature, and more insightful people sprinkled amongst the crown and I did see other people calmly calling out the nonsense.
I will say this, my observation at every event I’ve been to since I started, and on the mat is that the Revolution Coaches level of leadership by example and sportsmanship is really impressive and you should be proud of the culture you’ve created with them and what they have created with their students. I know not everyone on the mat is going to be someone who is safe, BUT I continue to feel safe enough to speak up and be supported if an issue was to arrive and like my teammates at Revolution have my back and I’ve got theirs and that type of community is truly beautiful and priceless and I think that’s why everyone thrives there. ☺️
I know I have a lot to learn, but I am confident in my mentors and classmates to guide me.
Thanks, Kaiha! It warms my heart to hear that. Our culture is everything.
Great pix, Andrew....especially the one with you and the stately statuary! Like right out of Marble Comics, you just can't help being the centaur of attention, can you?😉👍
I hope to one day attain this level of dad-hood.
Well, Andrew....then, I suggest you make like a doctor and have patients....and a waiting room with current magazines.😁
Very enjoyable read for a history enthusiast / out of shape BJJ guy like myself! You ever check out any of the modern (now very old) pankration, the Pancrase fights with guys like Shamrock vs Rutten?
Oh, absolutely. Those old Pancrase matches were great sources of learning during the late 90s! Those fights passed for instruction for me.
They were also vastly more entertaining than today's MMA.
I used to love watching MMA. It's definitely changed, but also I got a lot out of being familiar with every fighter. I enjoyed knowing their tendencies and what they were trying to do. Once I got out of the habit of watching and the schedule got crammed full of fights, it just wasn't the same watching anonymous randoms.
That's a great point, Devon. I also enjoyed it when the universe of fighters was small. It was easy to see where everyone was coming from. Nowadays? Bleh.
I was actually planning to ask if you would write about martial arts history! That’s a cool story about the “back take”. I was thinking the other day about how, when I first started BJJ, I would give up my back all the time, now I don’t make that mistake very often. It’s cool that BJJ is such a welcoming community, I would have loved to have seen how it was 25 years ago but I’m also grateful to be coming up in that environment now, when such a big effort is made to welcome people who might have been a little intimidated by the way it used to be.
On the deep historical side, I’ve been meaning to ask, do you think the early judo/jiu jitsu that developed in Feudal Japan was ultimately derived from the Greeks by cultural diffusion or do you think it developed in situ? A lot of people think the spread of Buddhism from Central Asia could have brought Pankraton technique to Japan by way of monks who practiced it, wondering if you had a theory on that. Great article as usual!
Fantastic question about Japanese ju jitsu (or jujutsu, if you prefer). I certainly don't have a definitive answer, but the more I've learned about the history of the Silk Road (and travel from Asia to Europe and vice versa long prior to its inception), the more I believe we're at least a little more connected than we previously believed.
It's very plausible that Alexander's march eastward led to 2nd or 3rd order impacts on Japan. For instance, Prateek points out here that silk made its way west (from China) to Greece, courtesy of Alexander's conquests and ambitious enemies of the Han:
https://prateekdg.substack.com/p/the-discovery-of-the-silk-road
I think it would be feasible to reconstruct a scenario where Buddhist monks passing through Greek Bactria could have picked up some Pankration and passed it on to East Asia along with their religion. That said, it’s sort of a hyper diffusion argument and I’m always a little skeptical of those, it’s certainly plausible that the same kind of grappling techniques could have been developed independently in Japan or China perhaps. But it’s so fun to think of all the ways this may have been possible! It’s interesting to think that, in that scenario, grappling techniques could have migrated from the Mediterranean to Japan then ultimately back migrated all the way to Brazil!
Great food for thought here. I wish it wasn't so speculative, but you know, it might not always be this way. History has a funny way of surprising us, and archaeological discoveries could help us fill in some of these gaps in the future.
I know just what you mean about relying too much on diffusion. Most of the time, it makes sense, but you can get into a lot of trouble if you're reaching to connect dots (EG, independent conclusions like the pyramid shape) that aren't really connected.
We do know a bit more about the (still murky) origins of BJJ, and it's not all about the Gracie family, either.
I think if success is only defined by the victory/positive outcome, we will continue to see someone attempting victory at all costs, and it is not only valid with sports but almost everything else we do. In most cases, a person's success is defined mainly by the amount of money, and some people do wrong/unethical things to succeed at all costs and end up in jail. We have two recent examples: Theranos and FTX.
I believe focus on winning should not merely be about the outcome but also about the journey and how goals are pursued. However, it is a complex concept to quantify over the amount of money that was made during an endeavor. I think that’s the reason why we judge success by a victory or how much money was made.
Well done. Our society (as it exists in this arbitrary moment) determines the rules by which the game is played, and companies jump through those hoops willingly.
Another interesting fallout here is the Prisoner's Dilemma.
I keep going to Goodhart's Law: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."
And if money or victory is the measure of success, it ceases to be a good measure in many cases.
That's also a pretty good explanation about why I don't really enjoy modern MMA.
I deal with Goodhart’s law frequently with what KPIs to use for performance measures at work, and it is a never-ending struggle.
Here is a great pictorial representation of my struggle:
https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law
Good sketch. I also deal with this crap every single day, and I hate it. But incentives are necessary... and one of the toughest things to think about in business.
Yes, I spotted this. It seems that this has been going round forever. I remember reading about an early judo challenge that happened in the White House, of all places! But before that Japanese 'Jujutsu' people were doing the rounds in the English Music Halls, taking on all-comers, usually amateur wrestlers. I haven't watched an MMA match in ages, I have no idea what the current trends are, all I recall is that as one tactic gets stymied, another pops up and so the whole circus goes round. I don't think it ever addresses the question it seems set up to answer, you just get athletes who get better at playing the game.
But, I find myself wondering; re. anything that ends up being presented to an audience... what's it actually there for?
Tim, I think you hit the nail on the head RE the audience. It's no longer about the competitors, but instead about the spectators... and then the money they bring in to the promoter of the event.
I owned a grappling tournament that ran some 150+ events over about 15 years. We learned a lot, but we always catered to the competitors. Perhaps unsurprisingly, we went out of business over the pandemic, but the reputation has lasted as one of the best jiu jitsu or grappling tournaments anywhere.
The audience changes it all.
Awe! I wish I could have seen this. I would think this would bring in more people to watch, but maybe that’s just my wishful thinking of wanting the masses to have more class than they possibly do when group think takes over. Sigh. Bring it back!
If we could have made money, we might still be doing it, but subsidizing a great tournament with our time (and, eventually, with our money) wasn't sustainable.
Fair enough, it does sound nice though!
If you have a couple of million dollars sitting around, I think we could pay for everything and start it back up. Just let me know!
Listen, when I come into my riches, you got yourself a deal. Revolution will be one of the first places I invest in. 💕💕😊
Karelin was an insane fighter. I enjoy MMA now and don't mind that fighters have a striking and a grappling martial art in their arsenal. I enjoy the BJJ vs. Sambo discussions, mostly because of the colorful Dagestani fighters LOL. Fun fact: Lucha Libre in Mexico is referred to as "the art of pankration."
I should maybe clarify: I appreciate striking and grappling arts, even putting them together. However, it's not longer an experiment of style-vs-style as much as individual with a particular skilllset vs another individual with a virtually identical (from where I sit) skill set.
I also really, really hate macho MMA "bro culture" that can often take over as the lowest common denominator.
I miss going to early UFCs.