Same here. I'm learning the language to describe all that previous agony, although I guess I did understand this principle. I can only imagine how much worse things would have been, had I not been turned onto the idea of perverse incentives some time during my youth.
This is a great topic that can be applied to so many disciplines. The first thing that came to mind for me (personal bias at play here) is the public education system in America. This no child left behind movement has made a mess of things. The system is so standardized, yet the standards are constantly changing to match the test scores.
Another excellent example is the crisis in academia these days where lots of junk papers are being written & published - because the volume of paper has become a metric.
This is one of the laws everyone faces if they manage a team. It is hard to find a perfect balance, as whatever you pick as a measure creates unintended consequences.
However, I will tell you a story similar to your story about reading books. One of my very creative friends had a number of steps per day competition in his office, and to win, he put the Fitbit on his dog's front leg and I am sure you can guess who won the contest and the prize.
Nice one! But how do you stop a measure from becoming a target? Targets are also good because they set standards that people then strive to achieve, the problem seems to be getting to the wrong target or the right target in the wrong way. So how do you stop Goodharts law from becoming reality?
Also, I thought of a coding example (of course I did). Beginners get caught up in the trap of learning many languages because it sounds impressive. In fact,any beginner coders who meet me instinctively ask how many languages I know. While knowing a lot sounds impressive it’s actually not very helpful at all, but people get caught chasing it.
I think the way to stop Goodhart's Law is to recognize that it exists. It's a weird sort of paradox where the monster goes away in an instant when you look under your bed.
Targets are important and I use them all the time, but I generally try to poke my head above ground and look around, to think about how they'll mess everything else up. They still do, but less than if I hadn't taken that big look around.
Very good example on the coding language collectors out there!
We don't have a specific syllabus, so it's more subjective, but we do have a committee of black belts who ultimately make most decisions. There's also not really one perfect solution for us, is there?
The whole meritocracy thing is built on this idea. The achievement of a measurement (test scores, top 20 college) has taken the place of actual achievement.
I also like meritocracy, it’s been very good to me. But our definition of merit is somewhat skewed because if Goodhart’s Law. When I hear Harvard grads screw up basic English grammar, my brain cries out. (I went to Indiana)
This fancy authentic Goochi belt I just snagged off of a reputable fly-by-night street salesman for only 1,000 dollars ("90% off, today only, special price for you my friend") begs to differ, boyo!
Uncanny. I was just looking up and showing that part of the constellation to the kids yesterday, because I mentioned how three insect bites on Nia's forehead looked like Orion's Belt.
When salespeople don't meet their quota they are put on a PIP or performance improvement plan for a year. If they don't make their quota after that, they're fired. It's brutal. That's why I referred to sellers as 'coin operated' to predict their behavior
Sure there are different ways to meet your quota but there aren't any shortcuts. You either bring in the money or you don't. Corporate sales is incredibly structured and deliberate
Perverse incentives abound but corporate sellers are rainmakers, superhero’s. When you’re a seller on fire you are a King or a Queen - everyone sells so you command an army. Kings and Queens don’t need work/life balance, they live for the hunt and the win.
You don’t have the corporation to fall back on. Corporate sellers can fly around, blame it on the company, the bad boss, shitty product, whatever. But when it’s *your* business, the grind is personal. Lots of respect.
I've certainly dealt with this a ton in my professional career.
Same here. I'm learning the language to describe all that previous agony, although I guess I did understand this principle. I can only imagine how much worse things would have been, had I not been turned onto the idea of perverse incentives some time during my youth.
This is a great topic that can be applied to so many disciplines. The first thing that came to mind for me (personal bias at play here) is the public education system in America. This no child left behind movement has made a mess of things. The system is so standardized, yet the standards are constantly changing to match the test scores.
Excellent example of "teaching to the test" here.
Another excellent example is the crisis in academia these days where lots of junk papers are being written & published - because the volume of paper has become a metric.
This one also coincides with the advent of LLMs, so it's even more visibly ridiculous!
This is one of the laws everyone faces if they manage a team. It is hard to find a perfect balance, as whatever you pick as a measure creates unintended consequences.
However, I will tell you a story similar to your story about reading books. One of my very creative friends had a number of steps per day competition in his office, and to win, he put the Fitbit on his dog's front leg and I am sure you can guess who won the contest and the prize.
Ha, nice. I bet you already know about those cobras in India during the British Raj!
Yes, I do.
Nice one! But how do you stop a measure from becoming a target? Targets are also good because they set standards that people then strive to achieve, the problem seems to be getting to the wrong target or the right target in the wrong way. So how do you stop Goodharts law from becoming reality?
Also, I thought of a coding example (of course I did). Beginners get caught up in the trap of learning many languages because it sounds impressive. In fact,any beginner coders who meet me instinctively ask how many languages I know. While knowing a lot sounds impressive it’s actually not very helpful at all, but people get caught chasing it.
I think the way to stop Goodhart's Law is to recognize that it exists. It's a weird sort of paradox where the monster goes away in an instant when you look under your bed.
Targets are important and I use them all the time, but I generally try to poke my head above ground and look around, to think about how they'll mess everything else up. They still do, but less than if I hadn't taken that big look around.
Very good example on the coding language collectors out there!
This is something I'm dealing with at my gym. I have a grading syllabus but students learn it to pass the grading, not to improve their Jiujitsu.
We don't have a specific syllabus, so it's more subjective, but we do have a committee of black belts who ultimately make most decisions. There's also not really one perfect solution for us, is there?
The brain plays funny tricks. I first read the title as "Goathart's Law."
As always, you make a good point, and you use an effective illustration.
Thanks, Bill! I kept thinking of it as "Goodfart's Law" myself.
The whole meritocracy thing is built on this idea. The achievement of a measurement (test scores, top 20 college) has taken the place of actual achievement.
I really like the whole meritocracy thing. Is there any way we can keep it, but get rid of all the bad stuff?
Is knowing Goodhart's Law exists enough?
I also like meritocracy, it’s been very good to me. But our definition of merit is somewhat skewed because if Goodhart’s Law. When I hear Harvard grads screw up basic English grammar, my brain cries out. (I went to Indiana)
Oh man, don't get me started on paper diplomas! This could be a very long and tedious conversation.
"Belts are not trinkets."
This fancy authentic Goochi belt I just snagged off of a reputable fly-by-night street salesman for only 1,000 dollars ("90% off, today only, special price for you my friend") begs to differ, boyo!
I think a belt it a little too big to be considered a trinket. This one might be a trink at best.
Trinkzilla!
^ Orion's belt
Uncanny. I was just looking up and showing that part of the constellation to the kids yesterday, because I mentioned how three insect bites on Nia's forehead looked like Orion's Belt.
I'm pretty certain those were government mosquito drones created so that we would have this very conversation.
When salespeople don't meet their quota they are put on a PIP or performance improvement plan for a year. If they don't make their quota after that, they're fired. It's brutal. That's why I referred to sellers as 'coin operated' to predict their behavior
And, presumably, not all sales are equal, so prioritizing very low value sales might still save someone's ass, right?
Sure there are different ways to meet your quota but there aren't any shortcuts. You either bring in the money or you don't. Corporate sales is incredibly structured and deliberate
Perverse incentives abound but corporate sellers are rainmakers, superhero’s. When you’re a seller on fire you are a King or a Queen - everyone sells so you command an army. Kings and Queens don’t need work/life balance, they live for the hunt and the win.
I think I understand this mindset. If I didn't, I don't think I'd still have a business today. The grind is all consuming.
You don’t have the corporation to fall back on. Corporate sellers can fly around, blame it on the company, the bad boss, shitty product, whatever. But when it’s *your* business, the grind is personal. Lots of respect.
As a side note, we've been watching 30 Rock for the first time this month. Of course this caused me to think of Glengarry Glen Ross immediately.
ABC!
Maybe the Goodhart's Law comes in here with the work/life balance.
I should probably say "work/life imbalance" if we're talking sales.