I had made a full commitment to not lying for almost any reason a decade ago. Having a kid made this decision a bit challenging for many of the reasons that you outlined here. However, Ira is now 9 years old and I can confidently say I have never lied to him.
It has actually been really enjoyable trying to navigate questions like this”where do baby’s come from” and “is Santa real” with small children. Turns out “from a vagina” and “no” are generally sufficient with a little context, even for a 5 year old.
Sam Harris wrote a short book titled “Lying” that influenced me quite a bit. In it, he places lying on the spectrum of violence. This provides helpful guidance for common arguments to the tune of “What if you are hiding a child in your house and a murderer knocks on your door looking for the child?” If you would be willing to use violence in that situation to protect the child assuming you were equipped to do so, but could resolve that situation peacefully with a lie, then lying is ethical.
After releasing the book he received a lot of commentary. The most popular question that came up was around Santa. I recently had the uncomfortable privilege of witnessing one of my 9year old son’s friends discover that Santa was not real. The result was that he was angry at his parents and felt he could not trust them.
In response to Sam’s book, one person wrote that they did not tell their kids about Santa as to not distract from the divinity of Jesus. To which Sam replied “I guess some ironies are harder to detect than others” which I found to be pretty humorous.
Kids say the craziest and most profound things on the spot sometimes!
Harris's framework is really good. The idea of a lie being less bad than something else is definitely a good way to think about when a lie might be okay. In my own life, being honest with friends and family is easy, although I don't always share 100% of what's on my mind... but it's tougher in a business environment where information is expected to be kept confidential. That's where things get messy, and I think that's my least favorite part of being a business owner.
Who knows what Mr Kazmir is up too nowadays, he was a polarizing figure and we mocked him mercilessly because he had dandruff and 7th graders rank high on the cruelty scale. But, what do bath salts have to do with eyeballs?
The only legit experiment I remember from that class was dissecting dead cats. They came preserved with different color blood vessels coming and going from the heart from being injected with some stuff. It was gross and disturbing. I hope they don’t do that anymore. On the plus side the cafeteria served the most delicious cinnamon rolls at recess and that made it all worthwhile
Yes, this is horrible. We dissected frogs in middle school, and that was really icky... but I guess I'm glad that I got the experience. Today, a model would suffice, thanks very much!
I don't remember if I ate any cinnamon rolls after slicing up that frog, but I do remember one of the students in class pretending to sodomize his dead frog with lab scissors. So there's that memory I will never forget too!
"These might be called white lies, implying that they’re harmless, although not all little lies are actually harmless."
The term has been around a long time. In the early 20th century, songwriter Walter Donaldson wrote the hit song "Little White Lies", about coming to terms with the fact that a lover has been told those by their significant other. It has been regularly revived since.
They are not to be confused with very distorted and untrue lies, of the kind personified by the notorious Baron Munchausen.
The biggest lie of all is: "The government is here to help you."
It isn't, or at least modern government isn't. The government is here to provide people who would never be able to get real jobs ... well, jobs. How else can a person go from making almost no money to 175 thousand a year just for doing a 9 to 5 job while ignoring their citizens and taking bribes from corporations and foreign governments?
The second lie is that your Social Security money will be there when you retire. Nope, it won't be. It's already gone. Your money might be replaced if there are enough workers to tax. If you are a woman, married, and have worked. When you retire, you will get your SS until your husband dies, and then you'll lose yours and part of his. The government won't give you yours and his, even though it's been likened to an insurance policy. Again, that money is already gone. If you don't have enough workers, they won't be able to pay you, and the government will let you starve before they go without.
I'm no fan of Kant, who posited that one should always tell the truth even when it meant someone would be killed.
I consider lying appropriate when done in service to one's country, such as lying to your captors in wartime about troop strength and movements, etc.
I also consider lying appropriate when some nosy busybody is prying with questions that are none of her damn business.
I'm sure there are other scenarios, but none come to mind.
Still, lying deeply offends me. Such as when people spread stories about vaccines causing autism. And the immense lying that underlies the Global Warming agenda.
If you're going to lie, make sure it's for a good cause.
Before my surgery, whenever people asked me how I was, I'd always tell them "Fine, just tired." Mostly because people don't want to hear how I really felt thanks to a chronic illness.
I know what you mean. Sometimes there's a trade-off where you swap the opportunity to have utter, complete honesty in for a much smoother and more useful way to communicate. It's like a whole category of things, and I might call these justifiable lies.
I've been trying to "ease up on the why" in my life. Damage from deception and lies isn't always forgivable but understanding the implications of our choices, at least we can choose future expression with intent, especially when we are wrong, and gives a way to cope.
Does "ease up on the why" imply letting a lot of things go, like not imagining ill intent? That's something I focused on a while back, and it has been as helpful as ANY mindset shift, ever.
Not really about letting things go or ignoring intent, more about not trying to understand every detail or reason behind a situation. You have to recognize that at times, getting to why isn't going to happen and specific aspects will always remain unanswered.
I haven’t lied in a while. Maybe growing older and being a ‘known’ in your social group allows you freedom from having to lie because others don’t put you on the spot as your blunt truths has have disappointed too often in the past. The closest I can think of lying is me saying I don’t know when in fact I’m pretty sure I do know. But my little truths are not necessarily ultimate truths and I don’t want to lead others astray as they need to find out for themselves, if that makes sense. I guess I feel less inclined to defend white lies than I once was. Sparing feelings by lying only postpones the inevitable IMO. Good food for thought, David!
This does make sense. I think my biggest current area is when someone comes to me with a secret, and then I need to respect their privacy as best I can (while also being somewhat deceptive with other folks, which I never enjoy). Almost all of this is in my businesses, though, where ideas are like gold.
Ohhhh, yes. I forgot about that sort of situation. I feel bound by honor to keep others’ secrets and I know some doozies! If I feel like someone is trying to wheedle info from me that is in confidence, I can usually make them feel ashamed enough to stop trying to pry it out. If they continue to try, I become very blunt as in something like, ‘ if i know anything here, it is not something I will share,so you need to quit trying to get it out of me or I will consider our relationship endangered…’ Blunt. Truthful- can piss people off but I don’t really care in such cases. 🤣😉
My entire world view just fell apart. Thanks.
You harmful liar!
Luckily, I'm an adult, so I know full well where babies come from.
You find them in a cabbage patch after Amazon drones deliver them there.
Oh yeah, I'm totally an adult too.
I had made a full commitment to not lying for almost any reason a decade ago. Having a kid made this decision a bit challenging for many of the reasons that you outlined here. However, Ira is now 9 years old and I can confidently say I have never lied to him.
It has actually been really enjoyable trying to navigate questions like this”where do baby’s come from” and “is Santa real” with small children. Turns out “from a vagina” and “no” are generally sufficient with a little context, even for a 5 year old.
Sam Harris wrote a short book titled “Lying” that influenced me quite a bit. In it, he places lying on the spectrum of violence. This provides helpful guidance for common arguments to the tune of “What if you are hiding a child in your house and a murderer knocks on your door looking for the child?” If you would be willing to use violence in that situation to protect the child assuming you were equipped to do so, but could resolve that situation peacefully with a lie, then lying is ethical.
After releasing the book he received a lot of commentary. The most popular question that came up was around Santa. I recently had the uncomfortable privilege of witnessing one of my 9year old son’s friends discover that Santa was not real. The result was that he was angry at his parents and felt he could not trust them.
In response to Sam’s book, one person wrote that they did not tell their kids about Santa as to not distract from the divinity of Jesus. To which Sam replied “I guess some ironies are harder to detect than others” which I found to be pretty humorous.
Kids say the craziest and most profound things on the spot sometimes!
Harris's framework is really good. The idea of a lie being less bad than something else is definitely a good way to think about when a lie might be okay. In my own life, being honest with friends and family is easy, although I don't always share 100% of what's on my mind... but it's tougher in a business environment where information is expected to be kept confidential. That's where things get messy, and I think that's my least favorite part of being a business owner.
‘It’s all fun and games until somebody pokes their eye out’ my 7th grade science teacher every single day
Clearly, your science teacher has never eaten bath salts. The fun and games don't have to suddenly stop just because you lose an eye!
Who knows what Mr Kazmir is up too nowadays, he was a polarizing figure and we mocked him mercilessly because he had dandruff and 7th graders rank high on the cruelty scale. But, what do bath salts have to do with eyeballs?
If you eat bath salts, you don't care if your eye just got poked out by scissors. At least, not right away.
The only legit experiment I remember from that class was dissecting dead cats. They came preserved with different color blood vessels coming and going from the heart from being injected with some stuff. It was gross and disturbing. I hope they don’t do that anymore. On the plus side the cafeteria served the most delicious cinnamon rolls at recess and that made it all worthwhile
Yes, this is horrible. We dissected frogs in middle school, and that was really icky... but I guess I'm glad that I got the experience. Today, a model would suffice, thanks very much!
I don't remember if I ate any cinnamon rolls after slicing up that frog, but I do remember one of the students in class pretending to sodomize his dead frog with lab scissors. So there's that memory I will never forget too!
It’s all fun and games until you sodomize a dead frog with scissors
"These might be called white lies, implying that they’re harmless, although not all little lies are actually harmless."
The term has been around a long time. In the early 20th century, songwriter Walter Donaldson wrote the hit song "Little White Lies", about coming to terms with the fact that a lover has been told those by their significant other. It has been regularly revived since.
They are not to be confused with very distorted and untrue lies, of the kind personified by the notorious Baron Munchausen.
Ever listen to Fleetwood Mac's "Sweet Little Lies"? I meant to circle back and link to that video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCGD9dT12C0
Note: I corrected the above link!
Yes- although "Sweet" isn't actually part of the official title.
This was, weirdly, one of my favorite FM songs growing up.
The biggest lie of all is: "The government is here to help you."
It isn't, or at least modern government isn't. The government is here to provide people who would never be able to get real jobs ... well, jobs. How else can a person go from making almost no money to 175 thousand a year just for doing a 9 to 5 job while ignoring their citizens and taking bribes from corporations and foreign governments?
The second lie is that your Social Security money will be there when you retire. Nope, it won't be. It's already gone. Your money might be replaced if there are enough workers to tax. If you are a woman, married, and have worked. When you retire, you will get your SS until your husband dies, and then you'll lose yours and part of his. The government won't give you yours and his, even though it's been likened to an insurance policy. Again, that money is already gone. If you don't have enough workers, they won't be able to pay you, and the government will let you starve before they go without.
I'm no fan of Kant, who posited that one should always tell the truth even when it meant someone would be killed.
I consider lying appropriate when done in service to one's country, such as lying to your captors in wartime about troop strength and movements, etc.
I also consider lying appropriate when some nosy busybody is prying with questions that are none of her damn business.
I'm sure there are other scenarios, but none come to mind.
Still, lying deeply offends me. Such as when people spread stories about vaccines causing autism. And the immense lying that underlies the Global Warming agenda.
If you're going to lie, make sure it's for a good cause.
Before my surgery, whenever people asked me how I was, I'd always tell them "Fine, just tired." Mostly because people don't want to hear how I really felt thanks to a chronic illness.
Great example of when a tiny lie gets you out of a big headache!
Often I just didn't have the energy to elaborate as well. It was a win-win for everyone...sorta.
I know what you mean. Sometimes there's a trade-off where you swap the opportunity to have utter, complete honesty in for a much smoother and more useful way to communicate. It's like a whole category of things, and I might call these justifiable lies.
THANK YOU for calling out that Archduke Ferdinand bullshit.
First history lie I remember recognizing as such!
I've been trying to "ease up on the why" in my life. Damage from deception and lies isn't always forgivable but understanding the implications of our choices, at least we can choose future expression with intent, especially when we are wrong, and gives a way to cope.
Does "ease up on the why" imply letting a lot of things go, like not imagining ill intent? That's something I focused on a while back, and it has been as helpful as ANY mindset shift, ever.
Not really about letting things go or ignoring intent, more about not trying to understand every detail or reason behind a situation. You have to recognize that at times, getting to why isn't going to happen and specific aspects will always remain unanswered.
Ah yes! We have to embrace a little uncertainty. It keeps life spicy anyway.
I haven’t lied in a while. Maybe growing older and being a ‘known’ in your social group allows you freedom from having to lie because others don’t put you on the spot as your blunt truths has have disappointed too often in the past. The closest I can think of lying is me saying I don’t know when in fact I’m pretty sure I do know. But my little truths are not necessarily ultimate truths and I don’t want to lead others astray as they need to find out for themselves, if that makes sense. I guess I feel less inclined to defend white lies than I once was. Sparing feelings by lying only postpones the inevitable IMO. Good food for thought, David!
This does make sense. I think my biggest current area is when someone comes to me with a secret, and then I need to respect their privacy as best I can (while also being somewhat deceptive with other folks, which I never enjoy). Almost all of this is in my businesses, though, where ideas are like gold.
I understand- when I was out in the work world things were different. Hated being put in those unavoidable situations.
Ohhhh, yes. I forgot about that sort of situation. I feel bound by honor to keep others’ secrets and I know some doozies! If I feel like someone is trying to wheedle info from me that is in confidence, I can usually make them feel ashamed enough to stop trying to pry it out. If they continue to try, I become very blunt as in something like, ‘ if i know anything here, it is not something I will share,so you need to quit trying to get it out of me or I will consider our relationship endangered…’ Blunt. Truthful- can piss people off but I don’t really care in such cases. 🤣😉
I don't always have license to be blunt, but I definitely use those other deterrents!