Lies are an interesting quandary. If we make a lie a binary against absolutly truth then it still becomes messy. Religion is a great example. It's not the TRUTH but it contains thousands of truths. Further typically the issue with Christianity in particular is they took a set of myths and then tried to force them to be TRUTH.
I'm drafting an essay now about the truth of myths and I found this quote that helps bring this quandary into focus:
"Myth is the exact opposite of something that is untrue; actually, it is something that is so true, it is ever and always, irrepressible bubbling up from the soil of every alphabet, every language, every time, every culture." - Stan Mitchell
Absolute truth is, in many ways, a siren call that can't be obtained. Instead, functional lies that drive improved outcomes work better than truth.
Finding out Santa wasn’t real was one of the biggest disappointments of my childhood. I remember the neighborhood boys down the street that I played with as a child were told Santa wasn’t real and it was a celebration of Jesus’ birthday, and I decided that was the better way to go. But with my own children, my husband at the time was insistent that we not deny them the joy of Christmas by telling them Santa wasn’t real, so I went along with it, and my kids believed longer than most. They didn’t have the same scarring over it as I did, but if I had to do it again, I wouldn’t.
Welp that took a dark turn. lol I think any lie told or anything that is omitted to keep someone from making a well informed decision for themselves is not sweet but does greater harm in the long run. It’s better to tell the soldier and allow them to freely give themselves knowing they are doomed for the greater good- than trick them into it- be they are also valuable and their life matters and they should get the information to make the best choice for themselves.
Nope, I never celebrated Christmas and lying about Santa seems weird. But I do think if telling someone something that could shield them from pain, could be okay… but again you have to make sure that person is truly telling a sweet little lie for the intent not to cause harm, and not to shield their own ego. Context matters. Idk. That’s just me. 🙂
I like it when people tell me that my fears of an all out war are unrealistic. I have a feeling that is a sweet little lie, except that the liars in this case believe their own lies!
I think some lies are beneficial, but it's never beneficial to say that they are
it's a bit like a quantum wave function that collapses when observed. If we say it's ok to lie about someone's appearance, we erode any trust is the answers. So we shouldn't say it's ever ok, although it actually is sometimes.
so by saying it's never ok to lie, we are committing our main white lie, but we should never say so out loud. Damn. I said too much already
To me, the most critical factor has always been the intent behind the "white lie." Are you trying to cover your own ass by telling a so-called "white lie"? Not cool. Are you protecting someone's well-being by telling a white lie that ultimately won't have a massively negative impact? Go ahead.
On a side note, we're still keeping the Santa ruse going in our house, but it isn't to keep our kids in check as much as it is to create some sense of wonder. I'm not huge on traditions generally speaking, but I do have warm memories from the time I believed in Santa back in the day, so we're seeing how long we can keep this going with our kids.
But most importantly, what do you think of these rotten capitalist pigs who run the shadow government that's runing our society?
I agree about intent being incredibly important, but what if someone goes forward with a white lie that proves to be catastrophic? I guess I'm back over to the idea of a national leader shaping things according to a particular perception of the world and strategy here, so this is a pretty specific case.
Keep me posted on the Santa belief thing! How much longer do you think it'll work?
Honestly? I'm pretty shocked it's still working. Kids at school talk. My kids have learned lots of new shit from their peers that I'd never taught them. So I'm kind of in awe that the Santa thing is still going strong. I give it until max this Xmas, but let's see.
Technically, countries, borders, religions, cultures, and Santa Claus these are all lies. But society depends on them nonetheless. Humans aren't purely rational, we think in colourful emotions and not binary truth-or-lie statements. As for deliberately telling lies, I think it depends on the context. If the net harm from the lie outweighs the net benefit then it's wrong. But measuring the net harm and benefit is the tricky part
You bring up an excellent new category of stuff that's made up by us, but not necessarily a lie in the sense of being intended to deceive.
I'm not sure I agree that anything made up is a lie, especially if everyone collectively agrees to recognize that there is something like a national border. Nobody is saying that the line isn't a construct, something we collectively made up in order to make things work better, so I think it might be a different category than a lie.
Then again, all reality is truly subjective, and this could be a part of a much more nuanced conversation.
Lies are an interesting quandary. If we make a lie a binary against absolutly truth then it still becomes messy. Religion is a great example. It's not the TRUTH but it contains thousands of truths. Further typically the issue with Christianity in particular is they took a set of myths and then tried to force them to be TRUTH.
I'm drafting an essay now about the truth of myths and I found this quote that helps bring this quandary into focus:
"Myth is the exact opposite of something that is untrue; actually, it is something that is so true, it is ever and always, irrepressible bubbling up from the soil of every alphabet, every language, every time, every culture." - Stan Mitchell
Absolute truth is, in many ways, a siren call that can't be obtained. Instead, functional lies that drive improved outcomes work better than truth.
Finding out Santa wasn’t real was one of the biggest disappointments of my childhood. I remember the neighborhood boys down the street that I played with as a child were told Santa wasn’t real and it was a celebration of Jesus’ birthday, and I decided that was the better way to go. But with my own children, my husband at the time was insistent that we not deny them the joy of Christmas by telling them Santa wasn’t real, so I went along with it, and my kids believed longer than most. They didn’t have the same scarring over it as I did, but if I had to do it again, I wouldn’t.
I love hearing this first hand. Thanks, Kristi!
Welp that took a dark turn. lol I think any lie told or anything that is omitted to keep someone from making a well informed decision for themselves is not sweet but does greater harm in the long run. It’s better to tell the soldier and allow them to freely give themselves knowing they are doomed for the greater good- than trick them into it- be they are also valuable and their life matters and they should get the information to make the best choice for themselves.
I am guessing your kids were not told about Santa!
Nope, I never celebrated Christmas and lying about Santa seems weird. But I do think if telling someone something that could shield them from pain, could be okay… but again you have to make sure that person is truly telling a sweet little lie for the intent not to cause harm, and not to shield their own ego. Context matters. Idk. That’s just me. 🙂
It's about LOVE man! Not collapsing quantum states or whatever. LOVE 🫶
The Fleetwood Mac song?
Sometimes the captain lies to the sailors to keep them from mutiny. I think I learned this from Jean Luc Picard :-)
Great example. Is this a slippery slope thing, or do the ends justify the means?
Probably, in some instances, it's necessary to do this, whether we like it or not.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
Leaders have to walk the line.
I like it when people tell me that my fears of an all out war are unrealistic. I have a feeling that is a sweet little lie, except that the liars in this case believe their own lies!
The more folks who believe it, the better?
I think some lies are beneficial, but it's never beneficial to say that they are
it's a bit like a quantum wave function that collapses when observed. If we say it's ok to lie about someone's appearance, we erode any trust is the answers. So we shouldn't say it's ever ok, although it actually is sometimes.
so by saying it's never ok to lie, we are committing our main white lie, but we should never say so out loud. Damn. I said too much already
That's an excellent analogy, of wave function collapse. I think about that every day.
Fear rules the world and we are its minions. That is neither true or false, right or wrong. It is my unique perspective.
To me, the most critical factor has always been the intent behind the "white lie." Are you trying to cover your own ass by telling a so-called "white lie"? Not cool. Are you protecting someone's well-being by telling a white lie that ultimately won't have a massively negative impact? Go ahead.
On a side note, we're still keeping the Santa ruse going in our house, but it isn't to keep our kids in check as much as it is to create some sense of wonder. I'm not huge on traditions generally speaking, but I do have warm memories from the time I believed in Santa back in the day, so we're seeing how long we can keep this going with our kids.
But most importantly, what do you think of these rotten capitalist pigs who run the shadow government that's runing our society?
Very interesting stuff, Dan.
I agree about intent being incredibly important, but what if someone goes forward with a white lie that proves to be catastrophic? I guess I'm back over to the idea of a national leader shaping things according to a particular perception of the world and strategy here, so this is a pretty specific case.
Keep me posted on the Santa belief thing! How much longer do you think it'll work?
Honestly? I'm pretty shocked it's still working. Kids at school talk. My kids have learned lots of new shit from their peers that I'd never taught them. So I'm kind of in awe that the Santa thing is still going strong. I give it until max this Xmas, but let's see.
Technically, countries, borders, religions, cultures, and Santa Claus these are all lies. But society depends on them nonetheless. Humans aren't purely rational, we think in colourful emotions and not binary truth-or-lie statements. As for deliberately telling lies, I think it depends on the context. If the net harm from the lie outweighs the net benefit then it's wrong. But measuring the net harm and benefit is the tricky part
You bring up an excellent new category of stuff that's made up by us, but not necessarily a lie in the sense of being intended to deceive.
I'm not sure I agree that anything made up is a lie, especially if everyone collectively agrees to recognize that there is something like a national border. Nobody is saying that the line isn't a construct, something we collectively made up in order to make things work better, so I think it might be a different category than a lie.
Then again, all reality is truly subjective, and this could be a part of a much more nuanced conversation.